इंसान वाकई बहुत दिलचस्प हैं; हमारी संस्कृति अद्भुत है, इसमें कोई दो राय नहीं है। कई मायनों में, कोई दूसरी प्रजाति हमारी बराबरी नहीं करती। लेकिन कुछ मामलों में वे करती हैं, और शायद इससे हमें अपनी संस्कृति को बेहतर ढंग से समझने में मदद मिल सकती है। हम उन तरीकों को देखते हैं जिनमें इंसान अन्य जानवरों के समान हैं और उन तरीकों को भी जिनमें वे अलग हैं, बजाए इसके कि बस यह कह दें कि "हमारे पास संस्कृति है और तुम्हारे पास नहीं।"
Humans are particularly interesting; our culture is incredible, there's no doubt about that. In many respects, no other species matches ours. But in quite a few respects, they do, and that can help us, perhaps, to better understand our own culture. We look at the ways humans are similar to other animals, and at the ways they differ, rather than just saying, "We have culture and you don't."
Humans are particularly interesting; our culture is incredible, there's no doubt about that. In many respects, no other species matches ours. But in quite a few respects, they do, and that can help us, perhaps, to better understand our own culture. We look at the ways humans are similar to other animals, and at the ways they differ, rather than just saying, "We have culture and you don't."
बड़े व्हेल मछलियों के व्यवहार का अध्ययन करने की तुलना खगोल विज्ञान से की गई है। अध्ययन करने वाला अपने विषय की एक झलक पाता है, अक्सर बहुत दूर से; वह प्रयोग नहीं कर सकता, और उसे लगातार उन आंकड़ों से अनुमान लगाने की कोशिश करनी पड़ती है जो आमतौर पर अपर्याप्त होते हैं।
Studying the behavior of large whales has been likened to astronomy. The observer glimpses his subjects, often at long range; he cannot do experiments, and he must continually try to infer from data that are usually inadequate.
Studying the behavior of large whales has been likened to astronomy. The observer glimpses his subjects, often at long range; he cannot do experiments, and he must continually try to infer from data that are usually inadequate.
व्हेल सांस्कृतिक प्राणी हैं, और हम भी सांस्कृतिक प्राणी हैं, इसलिए हालांकि हमें यह उम्मीद नहीं करनी चाहिए कि व्हेल वही करेंगी जो हम करते हैं, लेकिन यह अनुमान लगाना बिल्कुल अनुचित नहीं लगता कि हममें कुछ बातें समान हो सकती हैं।
Whales are cultural animals, and we're cultural animals, so although we shouldn't expect whales to do what we do, it doesn't seem unreasonable to hypothesize that we might share some of these things.
Whales are cultural animals, and we're cultural animals, so although we shouldn't expect whales to do what we do, it doesn't seem unreasonable to hypothesize that we might share some of these things.
यह थोड़ी विडंबना की बात है कि जब आप बुद्धिमत्ता आदि के प्रमाणों को देखते हैं, तो उनमें से अधिकांश सुनी-सु सुनाई बातें या किस्से होते हैं। उनमें से ज्यादातर ऐसे होते हैं, "अच्छा, हमने इस डॉल्फ़िन को यह असाधारण काम करते देखा," या, "हमने अपने उपकरणों में गड़बड़ी कर दी, और फिर डॉल्फ़िन ने ऐसा किया।" इसलिए मुझे लगता है कि जितना अधिक हम वास्तव में उन्हें अपनी स्वाभाविक शैली में काम करते हुए देख सकें, उतना ही बेहतर मौका हमें उन्हें थोड़ा बहुत समझने का मिलेगा।
It's kind of ironic that when you look at the evidence of intelligence and so on, a lot of it is anecdotal. A lot of it is, "Well, we saw this dolphin do this extraordinary thing," or, "We screwed up with our apparatus, and then the dolphins did this." And so it seems to me that the more we can actually watch them doing their thing, the better chance we'll have of making some sense of them.
It's kind of ironic that when you look at the evidence of intelligence and so on, a lot of it is anecdotal. A lot of it is, "Well, we saw this dolphin do this extraordinary thing," or, "We screwed up with our apparatus, and then the dolphins did this." And so it seems to me that the more we can actually watch them doing their thing, the better chance we'll have of making some sense of them.
जब मैं समुद्र में होता हूँ और किसी समुद्री पक्षी को देखता हूँ, तो मैं सोचता हूँ, "अरे, शायद मैं जानता हूँ कि वह समुद्री पक्षी क्या कर रहा है"—और मैं समुद्री पक्षियों का अध्ययन नहीं करता। और ऐसा ही कछुओं और बाकी जीवों के साथ भी है। लेकिन व्हेल के साथ, ज्यादातर समय, मुझे कोई अंदाजा नहीं होता कि वे क्या कर रही हैं, और वे वही जीव हैं जिनका मैं अध्ययन करता हूँ।
When I'm out in the ocean and I watch a seabird, I think, "Oh, I probably I know what that seabird is doing" - and I don't study seabirds. And the same for the turtles and on and on. But with the whales, a lot of the time, I have no idea what they're doing, and they're the ones I study.
When I'm out in the ocean and I watch a seabird, I think, "Oh, I probably I know what that seabird is doing" - and I don't study seabirds. And the same for the turtles and on and on. But with the whales, a lot of the time, I have no idea what they're doing, and they're the ones I study.
जानवरों के साथ बातचीत संभव हो सकती है, लेकिन मुझे लगता है कि यह उन जीवों के साथ आसान होगी जिनके साथ हमारी कुछ अधिक समानता है—जिन्हें हमारे साथ बातचीत करने के लिए पाला गया है, जैसे कुत्ते या घोड़े, या जिनके साथ हमारा स्वाभाविक विकासवादी (इवोल्यूशनरी) रिश्ता है, जैसे चिम्पाजी और अन्य गैर-मानव वानर। मेरा मतलब है, हम डॉल्फ़िन और व्हेल के साथ भी संवाद करते हैं, लेकिन हम उनकी समझ की गहराई तक पहुँचने की कोशिश नहीं कर रहे हैं। मुझे लगता है कि व्हेल और डॉल्फ़िन जैसे जीव, जो हमसे इतने अलग हैं, उनके मामले में यही बेहतर रहेगा कि हम बस उन्हें देखें और उन्हें समझने की कोशिश करें।
Conversation with animals could happen, but I think it would be easier for it to happen with creatures we share a bit more with - those that have been bred to interact with us, like dogs or horses, or ones to whom we have a natural evolutionary link, like chimps and other nonhuman apes. I mean, we do communicate with dolphins and whales, but we're not trying to get to the depths of their understandings. I feel that with animals as different from us as the whales and dolphins, it's likely to work better with us just watching them and trying to figure them out.
Conversation with animals could happen, but I think it would be easier for it to happen with creatures we share a bit more with - those that have been bred to interact with us, like dogs or horses, or ones to whom we have a natural evolutionary link, like chimps and other nonhuman apes. I mean, we do communicate with dolphins and whales, but we're not trying to get to the depths of their understandings. I feel that with animals as different from us as the whales and dolphins, it's likely to work better with us just watching them and trying to figure them out.
मेरा कहने का मतलब है कि यदि आप किसी जानवर के व्यवहार को देखकर यह पूछें, "अच्छा, इसने ऐसा क्यों किया?" और फिर इसके अन्य विकल्पों पर विचार करें, तो वे विकल्प शायद इसके जीन को आगे बढ़ाने में उतने सफल नहीं होते।
What I mean is, if you look at the behavior of an animal and ask, "Well, why did it do that?" and then consider the alternatives, those alternatives probably wouldn't be as successful at getting its genes around.
What I mean is, if you look at the behavior of an animal and ask, "Well, why did it do that?" and then consider the alternatives, those alternatives probably wouldn't be as successful at getting its genes around.
हम मानते हैं कि हम अन्य जानवरों में एक ऐसी प्रक्रिया या खूबी देख रहे हैं, जो इंसानों में दिखने वाली प्रक्रिया से बुनियादी तौर पर अलग नहीं है, इसलिए उन्हें अलग-अलग नाम देना हमें बेतुका लगता है। अब, मानव संस्कृति के कुछ पहलू ऐसे भी हैं जो हमें जानवरों में नहीं मिलते, और यह वास्तव में बहुत दिलचस्प है, लेकिन पशु संस्कृतियों के भी शायद कुछ ऐसे पहलू हैं जो हमें इंसानों में नहीं मिलते, और वह भी उतना ही दिलचस्प है।
We believe we're seeing, in other animals, a process, or an attribute, that isn't fundamentally different from what we see in humans, so it seems to us to be spurious to call them different things. Now there are aspects of human culture that we don't find in animals, and that's really interesting, but there are also probably aspects of animal cultures that we don't find in humans, and that's really interesting.
We believe we're seeing, in other animals, a process, or an attribute, that isn't fundamentally different from what we see in humans, so it seems to us to be spurious to call them different things. Now there are aspects of human culture that we don't find in animals, and that's really interesting, but there are also probably aspects of animal cultures that we don't find in humans, and that's really interesting.
हम आमतौर पर मानव संस्कृति के रूप में जिस चीज़ के बारे में सोचते हैं, उसका एक बड़ा हिस्सा कुछ परिभाषाओं में फिट नहीं बैठता। खान-पान (व्यंजनों) के पीछे क्या मूल्य हैं, जो कि मानव संस्कृति का ही एक रूप है? क्या इसके कोई गहरे मूल्य हैं? मुझे नहीं पता—मैं तो कहूँगा कि नहीं। पर शायद मैं खाने-पीع का बहुत शौकीन नहीं हूँ।
Quite a lot of what we normally think of as human culture doesn't fit some definition. What are the values behind cuisine, which is a form of human culture? Does it have deep values? I don't know - I would say not. But maybe I'm not a foodie.
Quite a lot of what we normally think of as human culture doesn't fit some definition. What are the values behind cuisine, which is a form of human culture? Does it have deep values? I don't know - I would say not. But maybe I'm not a foodie.
असली विवाद उन मानवविज्ञानियों (एंथ्रोपोलॉजिस्ट्स) के साथ होता है—सभी के साथ नहीं, लेकिन कुछ के साथ—जो खुद को संस्कृति का अध्ययन करने वाला मानते हैं, और फिर वे संस्कृति को इंसानों के दृष्टिकोण से देखते हैं, क्योंकि वे इंसानों का ही अध्ययन करते हैं। उनके दृष्टिकोण से, या उनमें से कुछ के दृष्टिकोण से, किसी अन्य जानवर में संस्कृति की बात करना भी एक तरह का विधर्म (पाप) जैसा है। दूसरे लोग कहेंगे, "हाँ, आप इसके बारे में बात कर सकते हैं, लेकिन संस्कृति की हमारी परिभाषाएँ आपकी परिभाषाओं से बिल्कुल अलग हैं और उनमें मूल्य (values) जैसी चीज़ें शामिल हैं, जो आपने कभी साबित नहीं किया कि इनमें से किसी अन्य प्राणी में मौजूद हैं।"
The real controversy comes with anthropologists - not all, but some - who see themselves as studying culture, and they then see culture from the perspective of humans, which is what they study. From their perspective, or, from some of their perspectives, it's sort of heresy to even talk about culture in any other animal. Others would say, "Yeah, you can talk about it, but our definitions of culture are so utterly different from yours and include things like values, and so on, which you've never shown to exist in any of these other creatures."
The real controversy comes with anthropologists - not all, but some - who see themselves as studying culture, and they then see culture from the perspective of humans, which is what they study. From their perspective, or, from some of their perspectives, it's sort of heresy to even talk about culture in any other animal. Others would say, "Yeah, you can talk about it, but our definitions of culture are so utterly different from yours and include things like values, and so on, which you've never shown to exist in any of these other creatures."
मनोवैज्ञानिक कहेंगे कि सामाजिक सीखने के केवल दो ही महत्वपूर्ण रूप हैं—नकल करना (इमिटेशन) और सिखाना (टीचिंग), और वे यह पता लगाने में वक्त बिताएंगे कि जानवर नकल करते हैं या सिखाते हैं। कभी-कभी उन्हें पता चलता है कि वे ऐसा करते हैं; कभी-कभी वे पाते हैं कि नहीं करते। और यही वह स्तर है जहाँ विवाद होता है। जीवविज्ञानी (बायोलॉजिस्ट) इसमें नकल, सिखाने की कला और कई अन्य प्रकार के सामाजिक सीखने को शामिल करेंगे। इसलिए हम इसे संस्कृति कहेंगे, जबकि मनोवैज्ञानिक ऐसा नहीं कहेंगे।
Psychologists would say that the only two important forms of social learning are imitation and teaching, and they will spend time trying to figure out if animals imitate or teach. Sometimes they find they do; sometimes they find they don't. And so that's kind of the level of controversy there. Biologists would include imitation and teaching and a range of other kinds of social learning. So we would call that culture, whereas the psychologist wouldn't.
Psychologists would say that the only two important forms of social learning are imitation and teaching, and they will spend time trying to figure out if animals imitate or teach. Sometimes they find they do; sometimes they find they don't. And so that's kind of the level of controversy there. Biologists would include imitation and teaching and a range of other kinds of social learning. So we would call that culture, whereas the psychologist wouldn't.
मुझे नहीं लगता कि जीव विज्ञान में यह बहुत विवादास्पद है। इस बात पर बहस होती है कि कोई खास व्यवहार संस्कृति है या नहीं। मुझे लगता है कि लगभग सभी जीवविज्ञानी इस बात से सहमत होंगे कि कुछ जानवरों का व्यवहार संस्कृति है। पक्षियों का चहकना इसका एक अच्छा उदाहरण है।
I don't think in biology it's very controversial at all. Whether certain behavior is culture or is not culture is argued. I think virtually all biologists would agree that some animal behavior is culture. Bird song is a good example.
I don't think in biology it's very controversial at all. Whether certain behavior is culture or is not culture is argued. I think virtually all biologists would agree that some animal behavior is culture. Bird song is a good example.
मुझे व्हेल के बोलने की संभावनाओं को खारिज करना पसंद नहीं है। इसके बारे में न्यू एज से जुड़ी, कुछ फूहड़ और कम सोची-समझी बातें चारों तरफ फैल रही हैं। मुझे यह भी लगता है कि इन जानवरों को सबसे ज्यादा फायदा तब होता है जब हम उनके रास्ते से दूर रहें। मुझे लगता है कि हम जितना संभव हो सके तटस्थ (पैसिव) रहकर सबसे ज्यादा सीखते हैं, इसलिए ये मेरा नजरिया है, और उस लिहाज से मैं इसके थोड़ा खिलाफ हूँ।
I don't like to be dismissive of whales speaking possibilities. There is a pretty New Age-y, poorly thought set of ideas about this going around. I also think these animals benefit most from us staying out of their way. I think we learn the most by being as passive as we can, so those are my biases, and I'm sort of against it from that perspective.
I don't like to be dismissive of whales speaking possibilities. There is a pretty New Age-y, poorly thought set of ideas about this going around. I also think these animals benefit most from us staying out of their way. I think we learn the most by being as passive as we can, so those are my biases, and I'm sort of against it from that perspective.
मैंने कभी इस बात के बारे में नहीं सोचा था कि भाषा विज्ञान (लिंग्विस्टिक्स) भी सांस्कृतिक चीज़ों को बढ़ावा दे सकता है। कुछ विचार ऐसे हैं कि इंसानों में ऐसा होता है, कि भाषाओं की अलग-अलग विशेषताएं होती हैं और वे किसी न किसी रूप में यह प्रभावित करती हैं कि अलग-अलग समूह कैसे व्यवहार करते हैं, और मुझे लगता है कि व्हेल में भी ऐसा हो सकता है।
I never thought of that one, that linguistics could be driving cultural things. There are some thoughts that that does happen in humans, that languages have different characteristics and that influences in some ways how different groups behave, and I suppose it might in whales.
I never thought of that one, that linguistics could be driving cultural things. There are some thoughts that that does happen in humans, that languages have different characteristics and that influences in some ways how different groups behave, and I suppose it might in whales.
हम जो कहते हैं उसका वास्तविक संवाद मूल्य आमतौर पर बहुत कम होता है। मैं कुछ समय तक छोटे, अलग-थलग मछली पकड़ने वाले गांवों में रहा हूँ, जहाँ हर कोई एक-दूसरे को जानता है, हर कोई जानता है कि क्या चल रहा है, और हर किसी ने एक ही टीवी प्रोग्राम देखे हैं और सचमुच, वहाँ देने के लिए कोई बहुत ज़्यादा नई जानकारी नहीं होती। लेकिन फिर भी वहाँ बहुत सारी बातें होती हैं। क्या कहा जा रहा है यह महत्वपूर्ण नहीं लगता; बल्कि यह कि आप इसे कहते हैं, किससे कहते हैं, और कैसे कहते हैं—यह मायने रखता है।
The actual communicative value of what we say is usually quite small. I've lived for times in small, isolated fishing villages, where everyone knows everyone each other and everyone knows what's going on and everyone's watched the same TV programs and, really, there's not a whole lot of new information to convey. But there's still a lot of talking. What's said doesn't seem to matter; that you say it, and who you say it to, and how you say it is what matters.
The actual communicative value of what we say is usually quite small. I've lived for times in small, isolated fishing villages, where everyone knows everyone each other and everyone knows what's going on and everyone's watched the same TV programs and, really, there's not a whole lot of new information to convey. But there's still a lot of talking. What's said doesn't seem to matter; that you say it, and who you say it to, and how you say it is what matters.
संस्कृति आमतौर पर व्यक्ति होने (पर्सनहुड) के मानदंडों में से एक नहीं है, लेकिन यह तर्क दिया गया है कि संस्कृति इनमें से कई मानदंडों, जैसे कि सहानुभूति (एम्पाथी) आदि के लिए एक माध्यम की तरह है।
Culture is not usually one of the criterion for personhood, but it has been argued that culture is sort of a medium for a lot of these criteria, such as empathy, and so on.
Culture is not usually one of the criterion for personhood, but it has been argued that culture is sort of a medium for a lot of these criteria, such as empathy, and so on.
बहुत सारे व्यक्ति एक ही काम इसलिए करते हैं क्योंकि उन्होंने एक-दूसरे को या किसी और को देखकर सीखा है। इसी को हम संस्कृति कहेंगे।
A bunch of individuals do the same thing because they learned from watching each other or somebody else. That's what we would call culture.
A bunch of individuals do the same thing because they learned from watching each other or somebody else. That's what we would call culture.
लेकिन जब हम मानव धर्म को देखते हैं तो एक बात बिल्कुल स्पष्ट लगती है कि यह मानव संस्कृति से बहुत गहराई से जुड़ा हुआ है। इसलिए यदि, जैसा कि प्रतीत होता है, संस्कृति व्हेल के अधिकांश कार्यों को नियंत्रित कर रही है, तो शायद यह सोचना कोई अनुचित अनुमान नहीं होगा कि इसमें... जिसे आप शायद अलौकिक (सुपरनैचुरल) कहेंगे, उसके भी कुछ तत्व हैं।
But one thing that seems pretty clear when we look at human religion is that it's highly tied in with human culture. So if, as seems to be the case, culture's governing a lot of what whales do, it's perhaps not an unreasonable hypothesis to think that it's got elements of...what I guess you'd call the supernatural.
But one thing that seems pretty clear when we look at human religion is that it's highly tied in with human culture. So if, as seems to be the case, culture's governing a lot of what whales do, it's perhaps not an unreasonable hypothesis to think that it's got elements of...what I guess you'd call the supernatural.
इंसानों में धर्म हर जगह मौजूद है। और इंसानों में यह इतना व्यापक क्यों है, इस पर बहुत बहस होती है। ऐसे संकेत मिलते हैं जो अन्य जानवरों में धर्म जैसे लगते हैं, जैसे चिम्पाजी का बारिश का नृत्य करना, और उस तरह की चीजें। दरअसल, मैं यह कहूँ तो यही एकमात्र चीज़ है और इसके अलावा ज्यादा कुछ नहीं।
Religion's pretty pervasive in humans. And why it's pervasive in humans is debated a lot. There are indications of things that look like religion in other animals, like chimps doing rain dances, and that sort of thing. Actually, I say that, but there's that and not much else.
Religion's pretty pervasive in humans. And why it's pervasive in humans is debated a lot. There are indications of things that look like religion in other animals, like chimps doing rain dances, and that sort of thing. Actually, I say that, but there's that and not much else.
मैं बहुत भाग्यशाली था। मैं 1981 में कैम्ब्रिज में अपनी पीएचडी पूरी ही कर रहा था। यह अवसर इसलिए मिला क्योंकि व्हेल का शिकार अपने अंत की ओर आ रहा था। एक प्रतिबंध (मोरेटोरियम) की संभावना थी, और जो तर्क दिए गए थे, खासकर जापानी व्हेल शिकारियों द्वारा, उनमें से एक यह था कि अगर हमारे पास व्हेल का शिकार नहीं होगा, तो हम व्हेल के बारे में कुछ भी नहीं जान पाएंगे। उनका तर्क था कि सारा विज्ञान मृत जानवरों पर निर्भर करता है, और यही व्हेल उद्योग के फायदों में से एक है।
I was very lucky. I was just finishing my PhD at Cambridge in 1981. This opportunity came up because whaling was drawing to an end. There was the prospect of a moratorium, and one of the arguments that was brought up, especially by Japanese whalers, was that, if we didn't have whaling, we would know nothing of whales. All the science depends on having dead animals, they argued, so that's one of the benefits of the whaling industry.
I was very lucky. I was just finishing my PhD at Cambridge in 1981. This opportunity came up because whaling was drawing to an end. There was the prospect of a moratorium, and one of the arguments that was brought up, especially by Japanese whalers, was that, if we didn't have whaling, we would know nothing of whales. All the science depends on having dead animals, they argued, so that's one of the benefits of the whaling industry.
मेरा इससे मतलब, और मोटे तौर पर संस्कृति पर चर्चा करने वाले अधिकांश जीवविज्ञानियों का मतलब, या तो खुद व्यवहार से है या फिर उस जानकारी से जो व्यवहार को जन्म देती है। ऐसी जानकारी जो सामाजिक सीखने के माध्यम से मिलती है—यानी दूसरों के साथ रहने, उन्हें देखने और उनसे सीखने से। यह एक ऐसा तरीका है जिससे व्यक्ति व्यवहार करते हैं या इस बात की जानकारी पाते हैं कि वे आगे कैसे व्यवहार करेंगे, जो सीधे तौर पर दूसरों के आचरण से आता है।
What I mean by it, and roughly what most biologists who talk about culture mean by it, is either behavior itself, or information that leads to behavior. Information that is picked up through social learning - so, from being with, watching, being taught by others. It's a way that individuals behave or get information about how they will behave that comes directly from the behavior of others.
What I mean by it, and roughly what most biologists who talk about culture mean by it, is either behavior itself, or information that leads to behavior. Information that is picked up through social learning - so, from being with, watching, being taught by others. It's a way that individuals behave or get information about how they will behave that comes directly from the behavior of others.